Curse

Jeydra · Nov 06, 2011, 09:52 AM // 09:52

I looked through the list of videos I've made of myself playing Elementalist, and I thought: why not?

Build used:

16 Air, 4 Energy Storage, 12 Deadly Arts
You move Like A Dwarf!
Finish Him!
Chain Lightning
Lightning Orb
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Air Attunement
Assassin's Promise [E]
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support

Target mob: the first mob in Nightfallen Jahai outside Gate of Pain. This means Edge of Reason (+3s recharge on all skills) but that didn't affect me much since I've got AP
Hard Mode
Lightbringer title off
I used a full 7H team, but am looking only at my own DPS (i.e. I count only the numbers I see on my screen)
Time taken is the time from the first damage number popping up to the last damage number popping up - not from the time the first monster is aggroed to the time the last monster dies
Damage from Deep Wound NOT included
Some of my videos had damage numbers that were obscured. I simply don't use those videos as data
It is possible, albeit rather unlikely, that I've undercounted in that some damage was done but not recorded (maybe the numbers were blocked so completely I did not see them at all)

I've got like twenty videos, but only looking at a few:

First try: 32 + 95x3 + 80 + 15 + 80 + 56 + 28 + 80 + 26 + 80 + 23 + 62x2 + 32 + 80 = 1021 damage over 16s = 63.8125 DPS
Second try: 32 + 95x3 + 80 + 56 + 80 + 15 + 35 + 80 + 32 + 51 + 19 + 18 + 16 + 35 + 14 + 33 + 25 + 14 + 80 = 1000 damage over 12s = 83.33 DPS
Third try: 32 + 95x3 + 61 + 80 + 23 + 80 + 80 = 641 damage over 7s = 91.571 DPS
Fourth try: 80 + 32 + 52 + 80 + 36 + 27 + 80 + 80 + 80 + 33 = 580 damage over 9s = 64.444 DPS
Fifth try: 80 + 32 + 61 + 14 + 80 + 80 + 80 + 80 = 507 damage over 9s = 56.33 DPS
Sixth try: 32 + 55 + 80 + 95x2 + 36 + 80 + 9 + 12 + 32 + 80 + 55 + 9 + 9 = 679 damage over 11s = 61.73 DPS

You can tell what caused all these damage quite easily. 32 damage is obviously from the Vanguard Sin's Iron Palm, while 95 is from Chain Lightning. 80 is from YMLAD or FH, while the 55-61 number comes from Fox Fangs, etc. And yes, Lightning Orb was never used.

Based on this limited info I'd say Elementalist DPS is in the vicinity of 60-70. I'd also say that maybe next time I should be more careful with my spell casts, something for me to think about.

byteme! · Nov 06, 2011, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I looked through the list of videos I've made of myself playing Elementalist, and I thought: why not?

Build used:

16 Air, 4 Energy Storage, 12 Deadly Arts
You move Like A Dwarf! pve only
Finish Him! pve only
Chain Lightning this is all your ele is contributing
Lightning Orb never used
Glyph of Lesser Energy don't need/redundant, see below
Air Attunement don't need/redundant, see above
Assassin's Promise [E] Assassin elite
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support pve only

Target mob: the first mob in Nightfallen Jahai outside Gate of Pain. This means Edge of Reason (+3s recharge on all skills) but that didn't affect me much since I've got AP
Hard Mode
Lightbringer title off
I used a full 7H team, but am looking only at my own DPS (i.e. I count only the numbers I see on my screen)
Time taken is the time from the first damage number popping up to the last damage number popping up - not from the time the first monster is aggroed to the time the last monster dies
Damage from Deep Wound NOT included
Some of my videos had damage numbers that were obscured. I simply don't use those videos as data
It is possible, albeit rather unlikely, that I've undercounted in that some damage was done but not recorded (maybe the numbers were blocked so completely I did not see them at all)

I've got like twenty videos, but only looking at a few:

First try: 32 + 95x3 + 80 + 15 + 80 + 56 + 28 + 80 + 26 + 80 + 23 + 62x2 + 32 + 80 = 1021 damage over 16s = 63.8125 DPS
Second try: 32 + 95x3 + 80 + 56 + 80 + 15 + 35 + 80 + 32 + 51 + 19 + 18 + 16 + 35 + 14 + 33 + 25 + 14 + 80 = 1000 damage over 12s = 83.33 DPS
Third try: 32 + 95x3 + 61 + 80 + 23 + 80 + 80 = 641 damage over 7s = 91.571 DPS
Fourth try: 80 + 32 + 52 + 80 + 36 + 27 + 80 + 80 + 80 + 33 = 580 damage over 9s = 64.444 DPS
Fifth try: 80 + 32 + 61 + 14 + 80 + 80 + 80 + 80 = 507 damage over 9s = 56.33 DPS
Sixth try: 32 + 55 + 80 + 95x2 + 36 + 80 + 9 + 12 + 32 + 80 + 55 + 9 + 9 = 679 damage over 11s = 61.73 DPS

You can tell what caused all these damage quite easily. 32 damage is obviously from the Vanguard Sin's Iron Palm, while 95 is from Chain Lightning. 80 is from YMLAD or FH, while the 55-61 number comes from Fox Fangs, etc. And yes, Lightning Orb was never used.

Based on this limited info I'd say Elementalist DPS (should be PvE only skills) is in the vicinity of 60-70. I'd also say that maybe next time I should be more careful with my spell casts, something for me to think about.

The entire skill bar only has 2 Elementalist skills that actually contribute DPS in which you even said yourself Lightning Orb is never used. Your thread title should be PvE only skills DPS rather then Elementalist DPS. Elementalist DPS within it's own primary attributes are still awful. You've proven nothing except Ele's need to go outside their attributes to deal any respectable damage.

Mouse at Large · Nov 06, 2011, 10:36 AM // 10:36

I may be wrong, but to me what this demonstrates is even when APing PvE skills, ele single target (OK Chain Lightning aside) damage is meh in HM. Take away the PvE skills and look at the DPS attributable to ele skills only and it makes me sad

Xsiriss · Nov 06, 2011, 10:58 AM // 10:58

So basically using generic PvE damage skills? The best thing for an air ele to use is invoke and chain lightning thrown with some other decent spells (shock arrow for e-management,elementalist lord, lightning orb) and whatever pve skills you want (technobabble is always fun). AP is ridiculously overused and best kept to builds that actually need the reduced cooldown periods.

Cool Down · Nov 06, 2011, 11:08 AM // 11:08

This is just similar to the AP caller build i saw on the wiki at some point, except you brought chain lightning.
I think it's' kinda sad that Ele's have to bring so many PvE only skills to actually do something in hardmode... Can't remember when the last time was I ran a build on my Ele that didnt have a single PvE only skill.

Jeydra · Nov 06, 2011, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

The entire skill bar only has 2 Elementalist skills that actually contribute DPS in which you even said yourself Lightning Orb is never used. Your thread title should be PvE only skills DPS rather then Elementalist DPS. Elementalist DPS within it's own primary attributes are still awful. You've proven nothing except Ele's need to go outside their attributes to deal any respectable damage.

Don't forget Elementalists need to cast GoLE. Also I didn't set out to prove anything.

Also lol @ the guy who thinks the Master of Damage is a good gauge of Elementalist DPS. Never read the skills on the skill bar, have you?

Shayne Hawke · Nov 06, 2011, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Just doing this analysis for funsies, or is there some kind of point you're trying to get at?

byteme! · Nov 06, 2011, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Don't forget Elementalists need to cast GoLE. Also I didn't set out to prove anything.

Also lol @ the guy who thinks the Master of Damage is a good gauge of Elementalist DPS. Never read the skills on the skill bar, have you?

I didn't forget anything. GoLE + Attunement + AP = redundant....pick 1 emanagement skill to go with AP and be done with it.

(edit) is attunement even needed at all? You're only using 1 elemental skill on that bar anyways. Things should be dying fast enough for you to spam AP in most cases to keep your energy up.

LifeInfusion · Nov 06, 2011, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

First try: 32 + 95x3 + 80 + 15 + 80 + 56 + 28 + 80 + 26 + 80 + 23 + 62x2 + 32 + 80 = 1021 damage over 16s = 63.8125 DPS --> 52DPS
Second try: 32 + 95x3 + 80 + 56 + 80 + 15 + 35 + 80 + 32 + 51 + 19 + 18 + 16 + 35 + 14 + 33 + 25 + 14 + 80 = 1000 damage over 12s = 83.33 DPS --> 67.5DPS
Third try: 32 + 95x3 + 61 + 80 + 23 + 80 + 80 = 641 damage over 7s = 91.571 DPS --> 64.4DPS
Fourth try: 80 + 32 + 52 + 80 + 36 + 27 + 80 + 80 + 80 + 33 = 580 damage over 9s = 64.444 DPS
Fifth try: 80 + 32 + 61 + 14 + 80 + 80 + 80 + 80 = 507 damage over 9s = 56.33 DPS
Sixth try: 32 + 55 + 80 + 95x2 + 36 + 80 + 9 + 12 + 32 + 80 + 55 + 9 + 9 = 679 damage over 11s = 61.73 DPS --> 53DPS

I don't know what's your point, as the numbers are pitiful any way you interpret them (Death blossom from Sin support + Chain Lightning are not to be taken as serious AoEs).

I wouldn't multiply 95x3 for Chain Lightning but separate the damage as "to target" and "other mobs" because of the nature of AP. If all or most of your skills were AoE other than chain lightning I'd see a point to multiplying x3. I think that's what people meant by use the "Master of Damage".

One of my current guildmates (Varda I think) once pointed out Eles are only good for spike (or "spike support") and that this won't change. This is a point that has been rehashed over and over in PvP.

My Ele bar these days consists of

11+1+3 Earth
11 Deadly Arts
8+1 Energy Storage

AP
YMLAD!
Sin support
FH!
Glyph
Churning Earth (HM) <-- just to keep from scatter... this doesn't always work btw
Eruption <--- AoE blind
Aura of Restor

10% HCT spear ofc ; Adept staff w/ aptitude not attitude for the AoE crap.

Not very ele-looking.

EDIT: My original build had orb + chain as yours but then I realized there's no point in chain lightning since it is fine with a 40/40 and Invoke (i.e. why AP it?). YMLAD+sin support->Lightning orb is pretty decent as a spike since it's upwards of 200. So the cracked armor only affects your character + autoattacks really. I don't use any ele heros.

I must not have wrote clearly enough as to why I personally would not multiply by 3. When you calculate DPS, your DPS is generally vs one target + the rest, see Master of Damage. If you don't separate the damage and show them sepatrate before presenting the numbers, single target builds will look massively powerful (see SoS or a sin with SoH/conjures) and the conditional nature of AoE makes it look bad. It's harder to heal AoE (Healing burst + Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight + Life + Protective was Kaolai + Heal Area) which is why even with a bit lower DPS per target you can use AoE (see WoH+Infuse monks in FoW). When we do damage for Unnatural sig for example, it's 70ish vs target , 50ish to others. When you do splinter for example, you don't add up the x3. It's 50 (at 15 channeling) versus 3 targets.

Getting 120 on a target is less hard than 120 on 4targets. For example, 15 channeling SoS = 25x3 + 25 bloodsong + 20x4 (Painful Bond) every 2 seconds = 90DPS. Discord is ~100 every 2 seconds =50DPS. You'd probably pull a max of ~40DPS on Invoke+Chain vs one target. Nobody would ever use Spiteful Spirit, Keystone Signet, or Mistrust then if you just add AoE stuff together with targeted damage. This is why I always break down X vs target + Y vs others (with the condition x # mobs) = Z total.

Jeydra · Nov 06, 2011, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

So, what did you set up for?

Nothing. It's just a statistic. Although I vaguely remember there were discussions in this forum that hinged somewhat on how much DPS the AP bar does.

@byteme! - no, Attunement isn't needed, although without Attunement I need to cast GoLE more often. I can't see a better thing to replace it with though, so I've kept it. If you have an idea, feel free to suggest.

@LifeInfusion - the 95 is multiplied by 3 because I hit three targets (i.e. I saw -95, -95, -95). You'll note that on the sixth try it is multiplied only by 2. That means in that particular video Chain Lightning didn't bounce to a third target.

If you want to get some numbers with a different primary or different bar, go right ahead.

Da Mystic Reaper · Nov 07, 2011, 02:08 PM // 14:08

If an ele wants to deal damage in HM Invoke Lightning, Chain Lightning, Lightning Orb, Shock Arrow, Intensity, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Air Attunement, Elemental Lord are the skills to take. You can also exchange Invoke Lightning for Elemental Attunement and Chain Lightning or Intensity for Lightning Hammer. You are able to deal plenty of damage to a target as an ele in HM, you just have to know how to do it. For large chuck sof AoE damage you are best to stay with fire magic but not Searing Flames, Savannah Heat combined with Meteor is a way to go. Rodgort's Invocation combined with Intensity also offers a large ammount of AoE damage and becomes more effective with more targets. Burning always works so taking skills that inflict burning also is a way to go in HM.

The thing is that all classes can do HM if you simply know how to do it. 80% of the active community are PvEers but only few actually know how to take it on. WiK already showed how many PvEers were unable to properly complete it with H/H. WoC with it's all heroes has even more people struggling calling it too hard with their Discord Noob builds while it can easily be done with heroes. Admitting there are some tough quests it isn't difficult to do, a good challenge would be the appropriate term.

Bottomline is that many people call themselves PvEers but few are able to play it properly both NM and HM regardless of the profession they are.

Essence Snow · Nov 07, 2011, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da Mystic Reaper

If an ele wants to deal damage in HM Invoke Lightning, Chain Lightning, Lightning Orb, Shock Arrow, Intensity, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Air Attunement, Elemental Lord are the skills to take. You can also exchange Invoke Lightning for Elemental Attunement and Chain Lightning or Intensity for Lightning Hammer. You are able to deal plenty of damage to a target as an ele in HM, you just have to know how to do it. For large chuck sof AoE damage you are best to stay with fire magic but not Searing Flames, Savannah Heat combined with Meteor is a way to go. Rodgort's Invocation combined with Intensity also offers a large ammount of AoE damage and becomes more effective with more targets. Burning always works so taking skills that inflict burning also is a way to go in HM.

The thing is that all classes can do HM if you simply know how to do it. 80% of the active community are PvEers but only few actually know how to take it on. WiK already showed how many PvEers were unable to properly complete it with H/H. WoC with it's all heroes has even more people struggling calling it too hard with their Discord Noob builds while it can easily be done with heroes. Admitting there are some tough quests it isn't difficult to do, a good challenge would be the appropriate term.

Bottomline is that many people call themselves PvEers but few are able to play it properly both NM and HM regardless of the profession they are.

I'm not really understanding what you are trying to get at. It's widely known that eles are great at what they do (are supposed to do) in NM. It's the HM armor issue where things change. Yes, every profession in the game can complete everything. Heck for the most part you don't even need any skills at all. Reguardless that doesn't change that eles lack in HM outside of ER, when compared to other professions. That is one of the reasons there is the ele update (or HM update) in the works.

Mouse at Large · Nov 07, 2011, 02:57 PM // 14:57

The real issue (as I see it) is that the ele's pretty much unique ability was to generate DoTAoE. I've never regarded them as single-target DPS dealers - other classes do that role so much better.

It's the effectiveness of DoTAoE that has been eroded by the scatter AI and the ramping up of mobs ele armour in HM. Sure, snaring ia available, but even if mobs are balled or you can pull off a good "tank'n'spank" scenario, when your "nukes" hit for less than half their base damage, you know there is a problem

LifeInfusion · Nov 07, 2011, 03:27 PM // 15:27

I did the math a while ago for [email protected] damage (15 air) and it came out to

31.26 vs 60AL target
24.11 vs 80AL
18.59 vs 100AL

(before 40/40)
38.13,29.40,22.67
DPS vs target with "40/40"

so Invoke isn't better than AP. Because HM doesn't have 60AL.

I also did one with orb, but that's more contrived after the first volley of orbs due to energy. If you were to use orb on recharge (i.e. count it as 5 recharge rather the 40/40 number) in between the Invoke/chain then you'd end up with 2.91 energy/sec cost even after AoR+attune+Ele Lord. Shock arrow with 8-9 Energy storage gives back 0.949 energy/sec after 40/40 ; 1.084 en/sec at 10. You'd be able to sustain it with Glyph because if you Glyph Orb + a 10 energy skill you're up 1.032 en/sec for a total +0.79 en/sec.
--> 65.44,50.46, 38.91 DPS in case you were wondering. (Invoke Lightning,
Chain Lightning, Orb, Air attunement, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Aura of Restoration, Intensity not counted because it doesn't affect the target, Shock Arrow)

Da Mystic Reaper, Ele attunement isn't going to do much other than give you ability to spam on recharge which is something you can do with Attune +AoR+glyph anyway. Hammer is the same damage as orb. Given that Intensity is the only reason to use Orb or Lightning Hammer and isn't affected by half spell recharge mods, it's still on an effective 10 cooldown and does a paltry 60ish damage considering your orb hits for 130ish at most.

I tried Mind Blast +Rodgort's + Liquid flame/Fireball or something like that last year and afaik the skills haven't changed. It doesn't do much in HM.

edit: I wouldn't even bother with Intensity simply because to use it with Orb you need to dump 20 energy (fine, 5+15-(6+1+1)=12 if attune+AoR+Ele Lord) that could be used for Invoke+Chain. Since Intensity is a PVE skill, it's even worse given 50-60 damage in nearby is very lame.

Nekodesu · Nov 07, 2011, 04:13 PM // 16:13

To achieve best DPS in HM, IMO, is to use Invoke. I use this bar: OgljgwMpZSAafDLgGD0CfehD7YA

I find that using fire is ok, but water or earth just deals so epic low dmg that I never even consider using it.

(Fall Back is optional, just didn't kno what else to bring, since I didn't need anything else. Oh, and I'm not all technical about these things, I haven't like, counted the dps or anything. Just thought I'd add it, as a build nub who found soemthing who worked good for her u_u)

HigherMinion · Nov 07, 2011, 08:13 PM // 20:13

I put it to you all that Necromancers have less variety of builds compared to Elementalists.

Eles, I believe, were not supposed to be heavy damage as they were perceived by players in Normal Mode, starting in Ascalon. Armour rating was low because of character level progression; you hadn't enough attribute points to deal much damage back then anyway. Into Hard Mode is what Anet were really thinking. A midline support class. Which, essentially, all casters that deal damage are. Fire magic skills that deal damage are there for spike power and AoE pressure on the enemy mob, causing heavy degen through burning and DoTAoE skills that force enemy AI to kite, thus not harming your party for a brief moment.

Eles can also run ER prot, which is pretty cool. Wards are old school but still a focus on midline defence rears it's head. Snares are another form of this, also helping melees keep on at their targets. Everything was made to support melee classes. Well, almost.

Voodoo Rage · Nov 07, 2011, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Personally I would think that an Ele AP caller would contribute more just chaining Glyph of Sacrifice and Meteor Shower into the standard build.

LifeInfusion · Nov 08, 2011, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Eles, I believe, were not supposed to be heavy damage as they were perceived by players in Normal Mode, starting in Ascalon. Armour rating was low because of character level progression; you hadn't enough attribute points to deal much damage back then anyway. Into Hard Mode is what Anet were really thinking. A midline support class. Which, essentially, all casters that deal damage are. Fire magic skills that deal damage are there for spike power and AoE pressure on the enemy mob, causing heavy degen through burning and DoTAoE skills that force enemy AI to kite, thus not harming your party for a brief moment.

Eles can also run ER prot, which is pretty cool. Wards are old school but still a focus on midline defence rears it's head. Snares are another form of this, also helping melees keep on at their targets. Everything was made to support melee classes. Well, almost.

You bring up a good point. SF Eles represented the most degenerate gameplay invented (spamming SF on recharge with Glowing Gaze/Liquid Flame in between).

I don't think that caster or ranged spike has ever been good for the game: blood spike, R-spike, a/p with spears, air spike, Searing flames spike, invoke spike, foc spike, mesmer spike, etc.

Melee has been been center in euro spike as far as PvP goes and pretty much every form of pressure.

However, if you were to put casters on a scale of spike support vs pressure/degen you'd have to put Eles at the far end of spike. Eles that can't spike via Invoke have to bring super-utility in order to be taken instead of necros or mesmers (rits are always in every build as resto as far as PvP), and in PvE snares/blurred vision + blind + wards are very pointless.

edit: if you go back to http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...93&postcount=1 ... there's like 5 or so skills that don't hinge on damage. So those would be "utility"/support or whatever you want to call it.

The game was balanced around level 20, not 26-30. Eles weren't designed to do damage to absurd minimum armor levels Hard mode mobs have. You just won't see those armor levels in PvP. And before anyone tells you otherwise, GW was built around GvG+HoH+RA+NM PvE with monsters of levels<28. AB was a Factions thing. That's why Eles had fairly little trouble in normal mode Fissure of Woe, the Underworld, or Sorrow's Furnace. The mobs were 80-90 armor more or less, which is reasonable. Cave spiders have 111 armor to elemental damage, but it's something that is inline with PvP (70+30vs ele+10 insignia).

This is why http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild...s/Armor_rating is a great project.

It reveals things like: Destroyer casters have 103 elemental armor, with 83 to cold and 123 to fire.

Jeydra · Nov 11, 2011, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da Mystic Reaper

If an ele wants to deal damage in HM Invoke Lightning, Chain Lightning, Lightning Orb, Shock Arrow, Intensity, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Air Attunement, Elemental Lord are the skills to take. You can also exchange Invoke Lightning for Elemental Attunement and Chain Lightning or Intensity for Lightning Hammer. You are able to deal plenty of damage to a target as an ele in HM, you just have to know how to do it. For large chuck sof AoE damage you are best to stay with fire magic but not Searing Flames, Savannah Heat combined with Meteor is a way to go. Rodgort's Invocation combined with Intensity also offers a large ammount of AoE damage and becomes more effective with more targets. Burning always works so taking skills that inflict burning also is a way to go in HM.

The thing is that all classes can do HM if you simply know how to do it. 80% of the active community are PvEers but only few actually know how to take it on. WiK already showed how many PvEers were unable to properly complete it with H/H. WoC with it's all heroes has even more people struggling calling it too hard with their Discord Noob builds while it can easily be done with heroes. Admitting there are some tough quests it isn't difficult to do, a good challenge would be the appropriate term.

Bottomline is that many people call themselves PvEers but few are able to play it properly both NM and HM regardless of the profession they are.

You want to nominate an area and then take that build through it in a DPS test similar to the one done in the OP? I'll do the same, playing through that area. Same thing to Nekodesu. It's certainly conceivable that Invoke outdamages AP, but we'll have to see numbers to be sure. Don't pick the same area as the OP though, because of Edge of Reason.

@LifeInfusion, DPS is total damage output over time taken, not total damage output to single target over time taken. If I hit three targets and see three -95's on my screen, I see no reason not to multiply by 3. Perhaps it's harder to deal damage to AoE than to single target, but how that is relevant here I don't see.

Also I'd rather not this thread turn into a "ANet are stupid they made Ele damage in HM pathetic" discussion. We have plenty of those threads already, just discuss it there.

Mouse at Large · Nov 11, 2011, 06:34 PM // 18:34

I just tried this with my heroes and me with:-

Earth Attune
AoR
Unsteady Ground
Earthquake
Eruption
EVAS
PI
Summon Ice Imp

16 Earth, 13 ES

As I'm slightly less than thorough, and fully recognising that the first group can be rather nicely balled up by EVAS, I saw numbers of between 25 and 42 going up on between 4 - 6 targets on my cast of Unsteady Ground. Obviously as they died, the damage dropped off, and I rarely had had time to get off a cast of a second AoE before the group melted (a testament to my heroes

).

My unscientific theorem is that, over the course of a single cast of Unsteady Ground, hitting 4 enemies for an average of 30, I will average 120 DPS over the 5 second duration of Unsteady Ground.

Care to test?